Comments on Yapping Yousuf: Grammar Fascists

Lallands, I suspect your style is either loved or ...

2009-10-04T08:29:18.845+01:00

Lallands, I suspect your style is either loved or loathed, or perhaps people swing between the two. I further suspect that I was in a bad mood when I used the word "tiresome" ;0)

A good word, obscurantist, particulary since the word itself has an obscurantist quality about it!

I've never had much interest in the more dull corn...

2009-10-04T02:16:37.704+01:00

I've never had much interest in the more dull corners of grammar myself and hence tend towards a rather impressionistic approach to writing. Folk who correct other people's grammar tend to be communicating their own basic wankiness.

Of course, you might say the same thing about people indulging in a massive obscurantist vocabulary (Mr Winton on yours truly).

In my defence, I can only plead excessive enthusiasm! Blogging may be about communication, but it is also a private saunter through political life, largely driven by the enjoyment of writing as opposed to the pleasures of being read.

That is my feeling, anyway.

It is a generational thing. I am constantly shock...

2009-09-29T10:08:09.512+01:00

It is a generational thing. I am constantly shocked at the almost universal poor grammar and poor spelling displayed by people under the age of 25. But I am getting on a bit. We must all realise that things change.

When I was at school for example we did not use computers - except for the geeks who did computing classes. We learned how to write a proper letter. Grammar, spelling and punctuation mattered. They are less important today. Email, texting - all that type of stuff is changing the written language.

This has always happened. You mentioned Shakespeare as classical literature. However even the most erudite and gramatically correct among us would find it impossible to read Shakespeare as Shakespeare would have read Shakespeare - unless you had training in reading secretary hand.

Language is constantly changing and evolving. As long as you can make yourself clear that is the main point.

Yousuf, fair point about "hysteresis". However, a...

2009-09-29T01:06:09.956+01:00

Yousuf, fair point about "hysteresis".

However, although literally speaking you didn't fall foul of Orwell's maxim because a shorter word wasn't available, surely the wider lesson of what he said is that you shouldn't use over-technical language, and "hysteresis" surely comes into that category, particularly when you use the term without further explanation.

Of course, I'm sure we all use words and phrases that other people don't know the meaning of, but one of the joys of reading is finding out what such words and phrases mean, and thus expanding our vocabularies.

After all, if we'd never undergone such a process then we'd be illiterate, thus I suppose it's just a question of being reasonable in these things. For example, I think Lallands Peat Worrier goes over the top in his use of arcane language, thus a challenge can become tiresome at times!!

BellgroveBelle " I can understand that people com...

2009-09-28T23:25:13.605+01:00

BellgroveBelle

" I can understand that people coming on to correct your mistakes can be irritating, but it's constructive criticism and generally intended as such "
..

In some cases yes but in other cases its just pure wickedness by someone who disagrees with you.

Subrosa has on a few occasions emailed me to say i have made a silly error which is fantastic and i cant thank her enough for that. On a few occasions my flat mate has gone into my bog and corrected some errors which i also appreciate

I have put comment moderation on my blog because of one or two of the unionists from a public forum leaving insulting remarks regarding my spelling and grammar so i don't give the spivs the light of day and if anything i have encouraged more debate.

I think it is more to do with the substance on someones blog and if its a powerful message that the person is sending out then some of those who disagree with it will retort to personal attacks.

As far as im concerned Yousuf is the winner, even though he is a yapping unionist :)

I think you're doing yourself down unnecessarily: ...

2009-09-28T23:08:40.663+01:00

I think you're doing yourself down unnecessarily: you make an impact, you get a reaction. That makes you a good writer. The rest is an optional extra. Like classical music, and the theatre, grammar's there to be used and enjoyed. You don't have to, but it's nice to know it's there. :)

PS I can't think of a single Linguistics or English Language lecturer I listened to at Uni who would even entertain the notion that split infinitives are wrong. In fact, they actively encouraged them, so split away!

You're just fine Yousuf, stop worrying about gramm...

2009-09-28T22:59:14.461+01:00

You're just fine Yousuf, stop worrying about grammar.

Your posts are very understandable and I've never felt the need to re-read them, for purposes of clarification.

There is a linguist in my family, he speaks 6 languages fluently and his job was head of the language department in one of the Canada's largest universities.

His written English is like shorthand, partly due to dreadful handwriting. Thank goodness for keyboards.

I think good grammar is important as it means that...

2009-09-28T22:12:28.244+01:00

I think good grammar is important as it means that you can be understood easily. We're all prone to mistakes, especially when typing in the heat of the moment!

I can understand that people coming on to correct your mistakes can be irritating, but it's constructive criticism and generally intended as such.

I had a really helpful book on grammar when I was wee, not sure what became of it. I think it was Ronald Ridout's A-Z of English, but it seems to be out of print.

Some just comments Stuart. Although in defence of ...

2009-09-28T15:32:39.263+01:00

Some just comments Stuart. Although in defence of 'hysteresis' what smaller words are there which explains the effect of a recession on changing the foundations of the labour market rather than just how it responds to incentives?

"I rarely write words over 8 words and may as well...

2009-09-28T15:11:34.200+01:00

"I rarely write words over 8 words and may as well make a confession: I can't read the Times or Guardian without a dictionary present and my grammar is poor."
...

Should that not be letters ? lol :)

I must have the worse spelling and grammar on the blog front but its true, its what you write that's important.

I never started a blog to impress people with my grammar and spelling skills. If people want a word perfect blog then they best not visit mine.

Yousuf, I think you're being a tad sarcastic as re...

2009-09-28T14:44:53.159+01:00

Yousuf, I think you're being a tad sarcastic as regards your sensitivity towards grammar facisim!

But for the reasons you outline I don't normally comment on such matters myself, if only because I don't want to invite comment on my own shortcomings; for example, I've never gotten to grips with the split infinitive!

But sometimes it's just irresistable, especially when people needlessly criticise the errors of others when their own English isn't quite A*.

Or when there's particular amusement or irony present in the error. For example, the irony of your unnecessary apostrophe in 'typos' - which, indeed, I suspect you included merely to make a point ;0) - or Joan McAlpine's debate with Jeff regarding grammar, which was ironic in view of what looked like a misplaced apostrophe (Peoples' Budget) in her Sunday Times piece yesterday morning.

Of course, it's perhaps worth pointing out that minor writing inaccuracies can often result in misleading prose.

For example, I sent the following as a letter to the Dundee press the other day:

"However, an SNP administration is now firmly ensconced in City Chambers and the party has formed the Scottish Government - to which taxi licensing has been devolved from Westminster - for well over two years..."

However, the two little dashes (don't know what the technical name for them is) were edited out, and the sentence thus read:

"However, an SNP administration is now firmly ensconced in the City Chambers and the party has formed the Scottish Government to which taxi licensing has been devolved from Westminster for well over two years."

Perhaps it's just me, but I would say that it now looks like I'm saying that taxi licensing has been devolved for well over two years, whereas I actually meant that the SNP had formed the Scottish Government for well over two years!!

As for your quote:

'never use a long word when a short one will do'

Hysteresis, anyone?

DId you see that episode of Room 101 when ther cri...

2009-09-28T12:51:20.677+01:00

DId you see that episode of Room 101 when ther criticised grammar bullies?

i always find good Grammar invariably leads to Mi...

2009-09-28T12:41:03.677+01:00

i always find good Grammar invariably leads to Middle class male,white and English

Right on br'other<.!

2009-09-28T12:15:34.455+01:00

Right on br'other<.!

Yousuf, I'm truly gutted to think that what I'd th...

2009-09-28T12:11:57.497+01:00

Yousuf, I'm truly gutted to think that what I'd thought was good natured banter may have hurt your feelings. I'm so sorry.

I'll never forgive you Caron, never! Seriously th...

2009-09-28T11:25:01.046+01:00

I'll never forgive you Caron, never!

Seriously though this is really more just a rant at my own failings than anything else...

Yes thank you BSH, nothing will change on this pos...

2009-09-28T11:23:51.409+01:00

Yes thank you BSH, nothing will change on this post, nothing!

I rarely write words over 8 words.. Apologies! B...

2009-09-28T11:06:50.576+01:00

I rarely write words over 8 words..

Apologies! But I simply couldn't resist!

My evaluation of a piece of writing (or music for ...

2009-09-28T11:01:19.811+01:00

My evaluation of a piece of writing (or music for that matter) depends on whether it has moved me, not on how many posh words it contains. Like you, I am not nearly as well read as many of the other bloggers out there, and I think that almost anyone is a better writer than Salman Rushdie.

Reading your posting has evoked a fair few strong emotions in me so it automatically counts as being good. In fact, it's probably brilliant.

None of these emotions are particularly pleasant to experience. Guilt and shame feature fairly highly, given that I am one of the offenders who has commented on the placement of apostrophes on here.

The last thing I ever intended to do was cause you any serious grief by leaving those comments. It wasn't about asserting superiority. I have to be honest and say that a misplaced apostrophe brings me out in hives, but that is my problem, and not your's. I had mistaken the banter that you and I and others had had on Twitter to be more light hearted than was actually the case.

I apologise for that and will keep my trap well and truly shut in future.

I don't know if you've ever noticed any of the positive stuff I've said about you over on my blog. We may disagree on a fair amount of policy stuff, but you do write well and are daily reading for me.