Vote SNP get....
Monday, 19 October 2009
It's been interesting watching the SNP at their conference try to come up with some sort of a strategy to fight the General Election.
They know that in every General Election their vote gets squeezed massively as people focus on the contest at hand and of course they face the charge of letting in a Tory government through the back door.
They certainly will not want to be reminded about initiating a vote of no confidence in Callaghan bringing in Thatcher but that is not why the case of who they would prefer matter.
The truth is that as Alex Neil said strategically what they crave is David Cameron in Downing Street because they think that what it will strengthen their case for Independence to get away from Tory rule.
Yet for the majority of Scots it's a repellent thought counter to so much of what they stand for and they certainly don't want their public services and support from government to be treated as some kind of tactic for a constitutional change they aren't interested in.
And the SNP know this which is why they will not admit that they are longing for a Tory Government. And of course for a party with a considerable number of ex-labour representatives driven almost as much by a hatred of the Labour party than with the issue of Independence saying they would rather have a Labour Government isn't an option - especially when most of the seats they want to win is against Labour.
So they have this hung parliament strategy where they will tell voters they should vote SNP as there might be a hung parliament and if there are a lot of SNP MP's they will form a Scottish Block winning concessions for Scotland.
Never mind having an actual reason to vote SNP or a policy to support but I suppose it's easy to avoid being a proper political party when you have no ideological beliefs whatsoever. It's where you see a Government who will play to the gallery on abandoning the Right to Buy despite it being highly questionable how progressive that actually is and then slashing rates on property and business taxes.
And I don't ever want to hear people like Will or others complain that Labour are negative when their campaign strategy has no positive reason to vote SNP at all.
And this brings me on to the 'Vote SNP Get Tory message'. First of all it's true if the SNP take Labour seats then it will mean it is highly likely that the Tories will get more seats than us and form the Government regardless of the actual swings to get a Tory MP in individual seats.
For those who say it is negative remember it simply focuses voters on the battle at hand. If they decide they would prefer a Tory Government to a Labour one then this may well encourage them to vote SNP.
It's a strategy that relies on people preferring a Labour Government, having seen our record in Government and our plans for the future. Nicola Sturgeon may suggest there is no difference between Brown or Cameron in power but I bet that the Scottish people don't -and won't - see it that way.
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33 comments:
Never mind having an actual reason to vote SNP or a policy to support but I suppose it's easy to avoid being a proper political party when you have no ideological beliefs whatsoever.
I know, why can't they make a positive, policy-based argument along the lines of "Vote SNP, Get Tory"?
As I say Colin the strategy depends entirely on people believing a Labour Government is in their best interests rather than a Tory one.
It means we have to continue to make the case on what we have done and what we will do wheras the SNP strategy isn't interested in what they have done in Government or what they wish to do.
But I'm guessing you don't have a problem with the SNP strategy, do you?
By your own logic, the Nat strategy depends on voters judging from the their record that an SNP "block" is more likely to speak up for Scotland's interests at Westminster than are the other parties.
So if Labour's approach requires people to judge them by their deeds (and decide that they're not as bad as the Tories - that's aiming high), so does the SNP's.
Of course, in advising SNP supporters to vote tactically for their second-choice party, Labour's message comes with the slight problem that it makes a case for independence.
I wonder: is it your view that Scotland occasionally being run by a Tory government it hasn't elected is a price worth paying in order to preserve the union?
vote labour get orange order yousuf will you stand with these men I hope you wash your hands after
This isn't a vote for a government, it's for a by election. The Tories aren't going to win this by election, so a vote for the SNP is, ooh, wait for it, a vote for the SNP!
I, and I would expect everyone in the SNP, crave neither Tory nor Labour governments at Westminster, but independence. Who governs us from afar is increasingly irrelevant.
A little point Yousuf.
They certainly will not want to be reminded about initiating a vote of no confidence in Callaghan bringing in Thatcher but that is not why the case of who they would prefer matter.
While the SNP DID bring forward a motion, it was superseded by a Tory motion which was passed - yes, with SNP support.
HOWEVER, that only brought about an election. It DID NOT bring about a Tory government - that was all down to the voters. Labour lost 54 seats in the 1979 election - I'd assume that had more to do with people voting Tory than the SNP saying "yer rubbish".
Bellgrove Belle, I'm sure you do crave Independence but I suspect that you think a Tory Government would help you deliver it and you think having a Tory Government would be a price worth paying to get there, am I wrong?
And I don't think a Tory Government will destroy the Union as it isn't who is in power which makes it work but rather the diversified economic base, distribution of income within the Union and oilitical influence that makes Scotland walk tall within the Union.
The days when either the catholic church, Orange Order or Mosque can tell their voters how to vote are long gone thank god.
Although I completely support Glasgow Council curbing the number of Orange Marches and think they are a vehicle of bigotry now as much as I did last week.
Fair point Malc as I say that's not really the issue, rather it is their desire to back the Tories now.
I honestly don't think it matters.
I say this because of the progress our national movement has made under a Labour Government... in 1997, we kicked off with 5 MPs, 181 Councillors (according to alba.org) and no Scottish Parliament.
We now have 7 MPs, 47 MSPs, 365 Councillors and are in power in Scotland.
I'm not convinced Westminster is a huge factor in our success (or otherwise!).
Yousuf
Your desperation is now showing in this post.
You think or hope the SNP support will fall in the general election, but Labour may not have noticed a lot has happened in Scotland since 2005, with the agenda now being pushed by the SNP. Maybe you never noticed the Euro election results, but you can always roll out the Labour mantra, honeymoon period, protest vote etc.
Talking about policys to fight the general election on, I listed some on another of your post, but as usual you had no answers so I will try again.
Maybe pensions Yousuf, no after 12 years of Labour UK pensioners are the fourth poorest in Europe. Re member the 75p per week pension increase Yousuf, that was Labour fighting for pensioners.
Maybe poverty Yousuf, no Labour doubled the starting rate of tax to 20p, still about 1 million poorest worse off (Frank Field)
Fuel poverty Yousuf, no Labour have done nothing to curb the excessive profits of the utility companies even though the price of oil has dropped by on third.
So we can see why the only election strategy Labour has is vote SNP get tory. What a vote winner and a positive message Yousuf.
The reality is that a vote for any of the three London based and controlled parties in the by-election or the general election is a vote for more London based policies that are increasingly irrelevant to a modern and more confident by the day Scotland.
So its really simple Yousuf vote SNP get SNP. Vote Labour and the future may not be bright but it may be orange.
Hi Yousuf,
Where do I start with this posting... So much to get my teeth into! But here's a few things:
* Scottish Labour is led by right-wingers that would make your average 80s Tory blush. For instance - think tuition fees and think of that arch-parasite on the Labour movement, Jim Murphy. The "Vote SNP, Get Tory" message doesn't wash with voters that realise it is "Vote Labour, get Masked Tories" these days.
* Labour is going to get thumped by a margin far bigger than the number of MPs in Scotland. It doesn't matter whether Scottish voters back Labour, SNP, Lib Dems or Tory the result will be the same. A Tory government in Westminster. That is why we need SNP to stand up for Scotland instead of second rate lobby fodder from the Labour Party.
* On so many issues you are increasingly out of step with your core support - tuition fees, prescription charges, privatisation of NHS and local government services, right-to-buy, a fair and just system of justice, nuclear power & nuclear weapons. On all of these issues the SNP now accurately represents the views of the core Labour supporters - and they are not as daft as the Labour Party thinks they are. They won't buy a "Tartan Tory" message when they can clearly see that the SNP is more in tune with their politics than the Scottish Labour leadership.
* I find it increasingly hilarious that young Labour activists try to invoke the ghost of 80s Tories, despite having no personal knowledge or recollection of that era. Thatcher laid waste to Scotland and the North of England, but the last 12 years has seen Labour policies that extend and embrace Thatcherism rather than repairing the damage.
* It is telling that you personally blame the SNP for Thatcher - since you are far too young to recall those events, it offers an insight into the blinkered, visceral, hatred of the SNP within the Labour Party and the people that have advised you. The SNP didn't cause Thatcherism, the failure of a Labour government did. And instead of blaming the SNP perhaps those folk that have advised you should reflect on the parallels between '79 and 2009 - a mortally crippled Labour government which is now limping along and will result in defeat for a generation - again - for the Labour movement.
No wonder so many people that remain true to the core ideals of the Labour Party have moved over to the SNP.
Yousuf
Good to see that censorship is alive and well on your blog. Good to see your NuLabour credentials.
What did you not like "the future may not be bright for Labour but it could be orange.
Or maybe yet again you were asked just what positives Labour were going to campaign on at the by-election and the next general election, and yet again you have no answers.
Okay so if voting SNP at an election is a waisted vote then I'm voting Tory.
Where does it say in the rule book that Scotland must vote Labour? At the next UK election 60% at the very least of Scots will snub Labour as they mostly do but yet we get the same old crap from Labour.
As i have said before, who ever is best placed in my constituency to boot out Mark Lacharosckievanhelsilink, then i will lend my vote to him or her. We need change and if its Cameron then so be it.
Yousuf
Thank you for releasing my post.
yousuf, you need to understand that Nats intrinsically hate the Labour Party for some reason.
Despite the fact that policies and ideoligies are quite frequently shared there is an astonishing lack of co-operation. tbh i would prefer to have what the Welsh nats and Labour have which is working together for the benefit of the country but that just seems impossible in scotland.
if my 1st choice candidate couldn't really win i would vote whoever would prevent the tories. but some of these mad natters, if it was a run off between the bnp and labour i fear they would rather vote for a bunch of facists if they thought that it would lead to a red face for labour.
You didn't tell me, Yousuf, whether you think a Tory government, unwanted by Scots (which we're overwhelmingly likely to get next year), is a price worth paying in order to maintain the Union.
Anonymous
yousuf, you need to understand that Nats intrinsically hate the Labour Party for some reason.
What most Nats as you call them see is a party that sold it soul to the pursuit of power and big business. A party that deserted anything they ever stood for, care for the old, the poor the sick, see my previous post on Labours record on these.
Maybe you can explain how many Labour MPs were members of CND and now are advocates of Trident.
What about a PM who called prescription charges an immoral tax on the sick, then increased them every year he was chancellor.
What about privatization, the party that campaigned against selling of BT now trying to sell Royal Mail to the highest bidder.
Rather than hate Labour we would rather embrace their ex supporters who see the SNP as being far closer to their hopes and ambitions than NuLabour ever could be.
If Scottish people aren't interested in constitutioal change as you claim, they will be quite happy to thole the next Tory Government just as they were quite happy to thole Thatcher because English voters chose to vote Tory.
That's the way the Union works. You can't make the argument that Scotland should not be damaged by a Tory government we didn't vote for without making an argument for constitutional change.
If you are not interested in constitutional change you just have to accept that English voters will decide who governs Scotland at Westminster.
The SNP doesn't have this problem because we don't want to be governed by Westminster at all.
As a non glaswegian I wonder if you can help, your party are saying that the SNP are ripping of Glasgow and you will stand up for Glasgow.
Perhaps you can then explain why GCC receives more money than any other mainland council.
Should other parts of Scotland not get new schools?
How many of the new schools announced should be built in the area or Glasgow?
Questions questions, Any answers?
Is it not remarkable that when you point out the clear evidence to a Labour activist of the right-wing nature of the modern Scottish Labour Party you get no response?
I'm beginning to wonder if Labour activists are truly self-delusional or just deliberately devious? Because they are surely not stupid enough to think that current Labour policies better represent the fundamental beliefs of their core supporters?
Anyway... you might want to read this for someone else's take on the current ridiculous Labour position - particularly pertinent given that Cochrane is no friend of the SNP.
Red tory, blue tory, two sides of the same tacky coin.
To blame the SNP for the demise of the Callaghan labour goverment is stupid. The Callaghan goverment the year before the election had lost control of the economy and the winter of discontent that occured.
I remember no electricity or gas, Rubbish piling up in the streets and no food in the shops. Cooking on a coal fire which with candles was also all the heat we had. There was no confidence in that goverment and literally everyone including the ulster unionists and Labours allies the Liberals voted that goverment down. And to be honest even Labour MPs had had enough.
Thatcher though was a nightmare but one that Labour created by its ineptitude. We are coming up to another election where Labour is a tired and spent force and where its policies have bankrupted Britain. I dont want the conservatives in, but Labour no matter what Scotland thinks has ensured that in the voting arithmetic of the UK that they will have a very good chance. It literally means that in Scotland Vote Labour or SNP we will still get Tories. At least with the SNP we can use the fear of further empowering the SNP to stop the worst of the Conservatives policies.
unfortunately these posts confirm the worst of scottish nationalism and that if scotland is ok then the world is hunky dory.
what about people in the north of england who didn't vote for a tory govt.? why not take it further and say what about the city of glasgow that didn't vote for an snp administration?
its parochial. if some of these nats are actually socialist then do they not believe in common endeavour and that more can be acheived as a collective compared to the sum of its parts.
whats the difference between a working class family in glasgow and a working class family in humberside?
Anonymous
What have people living in the North of England got to do with your rant about the SNP.
The people in the North of England who did not vote for a tory government did not get a tory government, Labour have been in power in all of England for the last 12 years.
I think it is already proven that the SNP are far more left of center than todays new Labour.
It might say Labour on the tin, but the policies inside are as tory as todays torys. NuLabour have no problem with people being filth rich, Peter Mandelson.
The difference between Glasgow and Humberside, maybe its because one is in Scotland and one is in England.
Yousuf
How about a comment on UK Government's proposals to abolish attendance allowance and disability living allowance. I believe the proposal has already been published in the "Green Book"
Once again Labour hit the poorest and most needy in society.
Socialist, you have got to be kidding.
What will Bain do about this?
Youssuf, I don't care which of the right-wing, warmongering, liberty denying privileged elite is in power in Westminster as long as the SNP has a strong enough block of MP's with which to defend Scotland.
Something, the feeble fifty Labour MP's singularly failed to do from 1979 - 1997.
It's a great pity there are no recordings of the Reporting Scotland special report where the likes of Dewar, Smith, Robertson, Cook et al, sat with their traps shut as George Younger ripped the piss out of them as he explained why the Clyde was losing shipbuilding, Motherwell steel, and Ayrshire and Fife coal.
Ordinarily I'd excuse your beliefs as being down to the shallowness of youth, after all when I was your age I marched with the SW, however I suspect you are merely deluded by some role model who has you convinced that Labour are not the corrupt, busted flush many believe them to be. It's all so very sad.
"unfortunately these posts confirm the worst of scottish nationalism and that if scotland is ok then the world is hunky dory."
That is an excellent example of the all-too-common Labour trait of totally misrepresenting the stance point of their opponents and portraying an SNP bogeyman to justify their own misguided membership of a party that has swung to the right and continues to propose policies that are an anathema to social justice and an anathema to global unity and peace.
"what about people in the north of england who didn't vote for a tory govt.?"
You are correct to point out that it is an outrage of the first past the post system (supported by Labour) will marginalise that the views of many of our brothers and sisters in the North of England. It is equally outrageous that the people of the North of England don't have a genuine socialist choice anymore due to Labour shamefully abandoning its roots. Hopefully disillusioned Labour voters in England will vote Lib Dem or Green rather than just stopping voting with all the negative repercussions that can herald.
I can assure you as an SNP supporter I am more passionate about "common endeavour" than just about anything else. It's just that I understand that common endeavour and human collectivism is stronger than national boundaries and governments and isn't confined within the shores of this island. That is a fact that seems to be too difficult for some parochial New Labour UK nationalists to grasp. We don't need to be ruled from London to have common cause with our brothers and sisters elsewhere on this island.
There is no difference between the families of Glasgow, Humberside, Paris, Berlin, Moscow, Tokyo, New York, Rio, Cairo, etcetera. This is one of the reasons why Global Citizenship at the top of the agenda over this coming century. Much more can be achieved as an international collective compared to the sum of its parts. It is why I hope, along with a growing number of progressives, that Scotland can play its role in perusing a fair peaceful world as an equal, peaceful, progressive, internationalist independent nation. An equal and enthusiastic partner in the 21st century global union.
That is a future worth campaigning for.
"The difference between Glasgow and Humberside, maybe its because one is in Scotland and one is in England."
The point anon is trying to make is that problems surpass man made irelevant boundaries. The problems faced in Humberside are the same problems faced in Glasgow.
North England won't vote a Tory govt in next year and neither will Scotland, so what's the point of the SNP argument then? It's not just Scotland who is voting against Tory.
Today, there is no difference between a Scottish person from say Glasgow and an English person from Manchester. I have more in common with someone from Manchester then I do with someone from Inverness or the Shetlands, and I'm from just outside Glasgow.
Let the top bit of SNP heartland break away if you want, but don't drag us people with a bit of common sense to see past historical borders with you.
The difference between Scotland and the north of England anonymous is that Scotland is a country, the north of England isn't. Scotland has its own parliament, its own government, itrs own legal system, its own education system etc. The north of England doesn't. Etc.
There is simply no demand for independence or home rule for the north of England whereas there is in Scotland. The existence of the Scottish Parliament proves that. Scottish Labour members know that a Tory Government in Westminster will result in increased support for independence. Their strategy to deal with that is a tad bizarre however. Rather than focusing on campaigning in middle England where the UK election will be won or lost they concentrate on attacking the SNP.
Demonstrating that they regard the SNP as a bigger danger than the Tories, as good unionists should. After all as unionists you guys would prefer to be living under the most extreme right wing government provided it was a UK government than you would to live in an independent socialist Scotland.
Point of information: Alex Neil did not say "strategically what they crave is David Cameron in Downing Street". He was asked what the consequences are if Cameron gets in. Big difference.
Re: Colin: "Scotland occasionally being run by a Tory government it hasn't elected". Your arguement is flawed, the SNP recieved 31% of the vote approximately, by 50% of the people, hence they recieved 15% of the vote of the whole electorate, yet they govern? Also, as the people in the Scottish Borders elected a Conservative MP and are hence governed by a party they did not elect, is that too high a price to remain within the UK and Scotland? Your arguement is one of desperation, hypocracy and is completely devoid of any logic.
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